Linda Hidary & Lillian Zami
Though Judaism does not permit the consumption of shellfish we must say that we secretly have a desire to taste lobster (especially after reading the beginning of the article). Just because something may taste delicious do we all of the sudden forget to have a heart? Or, why does wanting to eat an animal categorize us as immoral.
Throughout the article the author is debating with himself as to whether or not it is immoral to eat lobster. He battles on one side that it is ok and we are not evil people for eating lobster and on the other hand he just can’t seem to rationalize it.
The author tries to emphasize that the lobster being killed is specifically being killed for you. As though you are initiating his death sentence. But is it when the lobster is already caught, if I don’t chose to eat lobster the next person will?
People try to moralize lobster killing by saying lobsters don’t feel pain, or do not have the same nervous system as we do but how can you say that that is true when the lobster thrashes around in the pot?
“Let’s acknowledge the questions of whether and how different kinds of animals feel pain and is it justifiable to inflict pain on them in order to eat them. Turns out these questions are extremely complex and difficult.”
In the novel Julie and Julia by Julie Powell, Julie goes into detail about her struggles killing the lobster every time the recipe called for lobster. She calls killing the lobster a “crime conglomerate” (Powell, 151). She spent the time the lobster was cooking in another room. For someone who appreciates food and makes food her life project she has a hard time imagining this live thrashing lobster as food.
Powell, Julie. Julie & Julia - 365 Days, 524 Recipes, 1 Tiny Apartment Kitchen. New York, New York: Back Bay/Little, Brown & Co., 2009.
The author claims pain is a totally subjective mental experience that it can’t be measured or communicated considering animals can’t speak. What do you think? Would you say animals could feel pain just as severe as humans can or do humans and animas have different thresholds for pain?
Is eating meat different than eating a lobster since the meat wasn’t slaughtered specifically for you rather it was slaughtered to feed a few hundred people?
“It is, at any rate, uncomfortable for me and for just about anyone I know who enjoys a variety of foods and yet does not want to see herself as cruel and unfeeling.”
We don’t like to believe that because we do indeed eat meat we are horrible people. We feel the need to rationalize our meat eating by saying it is okay animals are meant to be eaten.
“For those gourmet readers who enjoy well prepared and presented meals involving beef, veal, lam, pork, chicken lobster etc. Do you think much about (possible) moral status (probable) suffering of the animals involved?”
Do you ever think about what you eat before you eat it?
Sandor Ellix Katz says in his article
“I love meat. The smell of it cooking can fill me with desire, and I find its juicy, rich flavor uniquely satisfying. At the same time, everything I see, hear, or read about standard commercial factory farming and slaughtering fills me with disgust.”
Is it fair to have this dual vision concerning meat? Shouldn’t we choose one side over the other?
http://www.alternet.org/environment/142638/the_trials_of_being_a_conscious_meat_eater_/?page=entire
“[Julie] spent the time the lobster was cooking in another room”.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry but this doesn't work for me ... Julie eats beef, pork, chicken, fish (presumably) and those animals had to die for her to eat them. She may not have been the one doing the killing but, by eating meat, she surely instigates the deaths. So when it comes to be her turn she turns her back and runs and hides? Buck up ... show some respect to what you eat.
I'm sorry, I know that sounds harsh ... but ...
As a kid I was raised, until my parents were divorced, on a small self-sufficient farm my father set up in upstate New York. This was in the late 1960s and early 70s, before people thought self-sufficient, sustainable farming was cool and noble. It was hard work that didn't end until you went to bed. It paid nothing and damn near bankrupted us. My father did it simply because he liked doing it. He didn't have any grand ideas of saving the environment, or to protest corporate food processors and supermarkets and, he certainly wasn't trying to set an example for humanity; he just did it. We grew our own vegetables, milked our cow, smoked our own bacon, and butchered our own stock. Any surplus we had, we sold or traded with guy up the street for eggs. Our lesser livestock (pigs, sheep) rotated as our supplies of those meats ran low—lamb was running out we got a new one; same with pigs, et cetera, et cetera.
One year our bull sired a calf. Cute. I still remember watching him come out his mother in the wee hours of the morning. Standing there in my kid Wellies, in the cold, I watched as my father and neighbor pulled on the ropes tied to the still-stuck-inside-parts of the little thing until it popped out, with a final moo from Mum, onto the damp and cold concrete floor.
Fluff! My sister and I named him Fluff (after the marshmallow crap you get in a jar). We had a lot of fun with that calf and spent most mornings and evenings, before and after school feeding him with this ridiculously large bottle. On the weekends we led him around our yards and gardens by a rope tied around his neck (loosely tied—don't freak out). Fluff had a pretty damn good life; he seemed happy, he was in good health, well fed and cared for. I can't imagine any calf in the world could ask for anything more than what we gave Fluff. It was a great spring and summer we were all spending together.
A few months went by and I saw our neighbor walking down the driveway with his rifle. I immediately knew what day it was. It was time for Fluff to be slaughtered. I wasn't surprised or sad. My sister and I both knew from the get go that Fluff was going to end up this way—food for our family; I really don't remember if our parents ever told us this was going to be the case or not, but we knew it nonetheless. I remember grabbing my jacket and going out to the barn. And there I stood again, in my kid Wellies, in the cold, as I watched my father and neighbor raise the gun to Fluffs head and pull the trigger. Pop! And with a final moo, Fluff fell once again onto the damp and cold concrete floor. Just as I had watched Fluff come into this world, I watched him go out. He knew what was going on, I could tell, and I am sure he was thanking us for the good life we gave him and a humane death in the end—Fluff understood and wasn't unhappy; he was quite the contrary, very happy. No other piece of veal has ever tasted the same since.
Eventually, it came time for me to slaughter what I helped raise through chores and care. I did what I had to do. It wasn't easy but I had to do it. This is why I can eat and kill animals; because I know where they come from. I know what they look like when they are born and I know what they look like when they die. But also because I respect them. I say that no other piece of veal has ever tasted the same since; that isn't entirely true. Every time I have a cut of meat handled with the same care and respect that we showed Fluff in life and death I have a good meal.
It is funny that this article is one we had to read this week. Earlier this week I was on the PETA website. Why? I really don't know why. One side of me knows that if I were to spend just a few minutes with the animals I couldn't bear to see them slaughtered. The other side of me loves steak, veal, lobster, pork, chick, lamb, etc. When I was younger I also liked Frogs legs. It is hard for me. I come from an italian family where meat is a huge part of my diet. Italians eat every meat out there. We have seafood on Christmas eve and sausage on Christmas day.
ReplyDeleteGetting back to PETA, if you go on the website there are some horrific clips on how animals are treated. I have came to the conclusion that we as humans consume meat. There are vegetarians and vegans out there but a majority of us eat meat. Getting society full of more vegetarians than meat eaters won't exist. I challenge any vegan to go to Peter Luger Steakhouse and see how fast they love steak. With that being said, I have high respect for anyone who is a vegan or vegetarian. I think efforts need to be made so that the animals don't suffer.
I understand the cause and I respect anyone who is for it. I love animals but yes I eat meat on a daily basis. A few days ago when I was on the PETA website I showed my friends one of the links. He replied by saying, " Why are you watching that? I don't wanna see it. I knows its bad but you just have to ignore it and block it out your mind." Sadly, thats what most of us do.
Just about everyone in this world eats meat without ever thinking how the animal they are eating was killed. It is obvious nobody does this because if they did they’ll lose their appetite in just thinking of all the suffering and blood. The most common answer that would be given to explain why it’s okay to eat meat is survival of the fittest. They’ll say that an animal eats another animal in order to survive and keep on living. When we are eating meat are we animals in how we don’t care that something had to suffer and die just to fill our stomachs.
ReplyDeleteIn the reading it talked about lobsters not felling any pain and I agree with its definition in how there are two types of pain the one you feel and the one you think you would be experiencing if you could. The two are just as valid because for example even if the lobster can’t feel pain he has to know that something is causing life to flash before him. I believe that we eat animals because we don’t see them as important as ourselves and as long as this is true we can do whatever we want with them even if it’s making them suffer just before they die.
It is hard for me to be sitting here writing about shellfish, (Lobster), after I missed an entire week of school because of an allergic reaction to shellfish. Thanks Professor Dodson.
ReplyDeleteObviously, I have never had the taste of a lobster so I am writing about something I can only imagine, so I don’t think I qualify to give any opinions on whether it is good to eat or not. Based on the reading and comments, I do think that boiling the garbage man of the sea while it’s still alive is just mean. These things obviously have feelings; imagine when your pot spill and you get a little hot water splash on your hand, most of us act like it is the end of the world, I can only Imagine how much pain this poor insect is in…Maybe I’m biased. Meat is delicious but I think boiling a live lobster is just wrong and obviously painful way to go.
The Maine Lobster Festival sounds like a nasty venue to be eating food, no place to wash hands before or after eating and it doesn’t sound like sanitation is something that is practiced at this venue.
Oh God. This whole article just washed a huge wave of sadness over me.
ReplyDeleteI don't eat lobster, but that's merely by circumstance, and not by preference. Ideally, I would like to be a vegan, but that's just something I know won't happen. I'm too used to eating meat. I grew up eating meat, like to show off my proof-that-humans-were-designed-to-eat-meat-canine teeth, and will continue eating meat, both for its taste and for its familiarity. My personal stance on eating meat is that it's simply wrong. Why should one animal have to suffer so that one may live, especially when the animal on the higher food level (humans) has an alternative? Im just so used to eating meat, as well as the rest of society is, and the taking of meat away would be radical to my daily life that I know it would be silly to imagine my life if it is taken away.
To keep eating meat, I usually rationalize in terrible and shoddy ways, like: "The meat I'm about to eat is already cooked--the animal is already dead. It'd be a shame not to eat it...," or "If I don't eat this animal, someone will surely eat it..."
But now, after reading this article, I'm glad i don't eat lobster. Seeing the lobsters in the tank at the market, as embarrassing as this is to say, used to make me cry as a child, because I'd watch the tank and see these lobsters all scrunched together, with their limbs tied, with a fate just so gruesome that even thinking about it would lead me to tears--they were waiting for their death. Reading this article just kept making go "Oh God" and made me relive my past memories. Nostalgia at its worst.
I think eating meat is slightly different from eating a lobster; the lobster you boil ALIVE, and the meat-animals are killed (usually, and hopefully) in a quick and slaughter-esque way before cooked. That already distinguishes it, i feel. The pain feeled by those poor animals in the boiling pot makes me shudder...
Which brings me to my next point. I feel that, absolutely, lobsters feel pain. This is incomparable to humans, but it just might be that it feels so much more pain that humans do. Or, at the very least, close to what humans feel under the same exact pressures. My reasoning behind this is influenced by medical understanding as well as philosophic explanations, but simply put, I see it everyday with my pet cat, Simba, at my house. If I were to accidentally step on Simba's tail or paw, he'll yelp really loud and pull his hand out, and then run away. Worse yet, he wont even approach me for at least a few hours, and will run when I approach him. In that sense, how could he not feel any pain like humans do? The reactions are the same--visual and audible reaction to pain, and a noticeable awareness after and during the pain is felt.
When it comes to the dual vision concerning meat, I feel everyone feels that way. No one likes to tune into Queens public television (or whatever borough) and see the occasional animals in fast food chains being abused (to provide awareness to the public), but yet everyone still eats fast food. In only being selfish and eating, we are trying to deal with eating meat in our own way. An ignorant, and immoral way. The fact of the matter is, I, along with the rest of humanity (for now) simply loves to eat meat. And when that type of selfish desire is there, the meat-murder will continue.
Thank you, Lillian & Linda, for heading a discussion that I'm sure will prove lively.
ReplyDeleteTo start, before the discussion takes a likely turn toward the morality of animal consumption, why lobster? Why is lobster such an intriguing example?
I, not unlike Shane, grew up in a fairly rural area (and I actually have a similar story that I'm sure I'll tell tomorrow). As a child, I went -- not often but a handful of times -- hunting, and the deer or game that was killed was brought home and consumed. So, for me, the gap between killing and cooking was filled in at an early age. This is where I find the lobster example particularly interesting: Unlike most foods prepared at home, lobster is delivered alive. You are in charge of killing it, and, for many, this is one of the only times where the gap between killing and eating is closed.
At the end of the essay, in his half-hearted inquest cum moral indictment of the readers of "Gourmet," Wallace asks about the thinking of those who dismiss the issues involved with eating lobster. What I think he may miss in this final line of questioning is that while we do not supersede the possible morality of the issue by closing the gap (cooking the lobster, shooting the deer, being informed about where your meat is coming from), we do not blindly accept the possible immorality of it either by doing so.
This, as I see it, is not an issue of survival of the fittest. Lions do not have a moral compass, nor are they equipped with molars -- meat is their only means of sustenance. We are omnivores capable of independent and abstract thought, which -- usually -- prize choice over instinct. If we wanted to (and were environmentally permitted), we could eat only fruits and vegetables and survive. Still, we eat meat.
So, is cooking a lobster justifiable when we make a conscious choice to do so and accept that choice?
I love lobster. As a kid, my number one request for my birthday dinner was "lobster and clams." Maybe because I grew up in Eastern Long Island, but seafood was the majority of what I grew up eating. I learned how to catch and clean scales off of fish when I was very young. But, cooking lobster was always kept to the adults. It was as if it was some secret ceremony that would be held in the kitchen before dinner. "No kids allowed in the kitchen!" was the rule we thoughtlessly adhered to growing up. This article made me think of those times. The lobster races on the living room floor and then poof! My favorite meal! David Foster Wallace did an excellent job with this piece to lure you in to the reading by presenting an uplifting, positive and informative view of the lobster festival and lobsters. Then to turn to the underbelly of both things, siting that his fellow food writer at Food and Wine must've never even gone to the festival for they possibly wouldnt've never suggested it as one of the , "Best food themed galas of the World." He then goes into detail of the cooking of lobsters and the ethical discussion surrounding. It is true, there would never be a festival where they paraded cows out to a stage to be slaughtered. Where do we draw the line? The fact that over the years society changed it's view from lobster being for prisoners and poor people to it becoming the sought after food of the rich (and the hip hop community) opens the idea that maybe people will change their minds again about lobster based off of the ethical issues of how a lobster is cooked. I feel Americans won't lead this fight, we are incredibly sheltered from the way we get our food. Even if people attended this festival and watched as they put hundreds of lobsters into the gigantic cooking pot, I don't think it would effect them because we are so disconnected with food here.After reading this article and the education I got from it made me want to not eat lobster, at least for a while. My birthday is in January, I'll see how I feel then. I loved this article. It's a shame this author isn't around anymore.
ReplyDeleteThis is a very interesting article that delves very deep into every aspects of something that I can bet not one of us thinks of even one time in an entire year--- The Lobster industry.
ReplyDeleteThe description of the Annual Maine Lobster Festival is a description of what to me can be simply stated as a slaughtering. I most enjoy the way Wallace describes how over 25,000 pounds of Lobster in all different forms and recipes are gluttonously consumed each year by thousands of people at this seemingly systematic Lobster mortuary. I like how Wallace puts things in perspective for the reader and really evokes the feeling in his title Consider the Lobster because he shows the reader every single aspect of a Lobster’s life BEFORE AND AFTER we as humans “take it over”.
This finite issue actually sprawls all inches of society, obviously, because we are constantly consuming dead or slaughtered animals for nutrition. I believe Although Wallace’s article offers a look into just one aspect of how we treat our animal friends, it made me think of the way we treat ALL animals consumed by humans for nutrition.
By giving the reader the present and past history of the Lobster, I was able to understand MUCH better how big of an impact we as humans have had on our crusty friends. In some parts of the world, namely Maine, we have turned Lobster into a fad, and pretty much ignored how our actions affect the current Lobsters we’re consuming, or generations of Lobsters to come. Festivals like the Annual Maine Lobster Festival, to me, can be said to have the same amount of NULL morality as factory farms, or chicken broilers--- having NO regard for the feelings of the living organism, and only viewing it as incoming revenue, where money rules over morals.
Reading this article changed my whole perspective towards shellfish and specifically lobsters. Sharing with Nate being unable to experience the "delicious" taste(according to family members)of such a "delicacy" like lobster(due to the reaction crap)I could only say that;after reading the article, it is cruel the way in which lobsters get in the plates of those who consume it. I always thought that even when one went to the fish market and bought the lobster to cook it at home this one was already dead. Never crossed my mind that the instant you reach home you have to put on your killing face and ripped/boiled/slash the life out of this animal. Still, I like the author find myself in the middle of the argument. "I like to eat certain kinds of animals and want to be able to keep doing it". Regarding the lobster, I think its so contradictory to consider this one as a "delicacy" when knowing the actions this one takes in the ocean. I mean "giant sea insects", "garbagemen of the sea, eaters of dead stuff"? we could say that in our contemporary society lobsters are so overrated. However, I've never experienced the taste of this one in order to judge. I guess to each their own......enjoy!!
ReplyDeleteThis is Cristal's comment:
ReplyDeleteDavid Foster Wallace wrote about whether or not it is morally correct to cook a lobster while it's still alive. Almost all of us eat meat and seafood without thinking how it got to our plates. I don't think many people would have an appetite after seeing how the animals are slaughter.
I spent four years in the country side of Mexico where it was routine to see a pig, a chicken or any animal being killed. It used to bother me when I was younger but I guess I got use to it. I personally don't like seafood but I wouldn't have a problem eating a lobster. The animal might suffer but it’s either them or us. It’s true we would be able to survive with out meats but if we didn’t eat them soon there would be overpopulation and at the end animals would end up killing each other.
I was shock to read about the history of lobsters, I didn’t know that in the past they we considered as dirty as rats.
I think people should be allowed to eat whatever they want (as long as it is not other humans) as long as they are being killed with some respect.
Personally I am a huge fan of seafood and the taste of lobsters is delicious. However, I had never catch or killed any living things before. There was never a point where I wanted to have blood nor death on my hands. I rather pay someone else to do the job for me. The feeling of touching a live thing and attempting to kill it is unbearable.
ReplyDeleteI remember going to Maine with my ex boyfriend, and we had a magnificent meal of lobster. The thought of how it struggled in the boiling water had never passed my mind. All I cared about was tearing the lobster into pieces and enjoying it. Am I heartless? No. I care for living things but only to a certain degree. Not everyone can live off on green and be a vegetarian. Some people might feel bad about eating meat because they seen a video on you tube or live of how animals are slaughtered but those thoughts wouldn’t matter for long. When time passes, they’ll eventually start to eat it again. There are exceptions, like the vegetarians. For myself, I can never be a vegetarian and I wouldn’t even attempt to try. The article is cruel but it wouldn’t stop me from eating lobsters. I think we are allow to eat anything that is legal.
This article made me think of what I'm really a part of when eating any kind of meat. I'm not saying stop eating meat, but I just think its fair to know how did your meal get on your plate. As the conversation was going on in class I realized some of the students were oblivious to how we get our meat. I feel everyone should know what these food companies do to their animals, by how they treat them and to what they actually feed them. It's not fair and I just want to put it out there that we should know. How people get fur, and some of the things we get from animals and the torture that some of these animals go threw. I just think its our right as the consumer to know, not to make us stop eating it but to let us know what had to be done for us to eat.
ReplyDeleteThe morality of the situation is base on culture and religion. I was raised in a country where we eat from rabbits to monkeys. The Killing of a lobster is no different from killing a cow, goat, rabbit or chicken. I am actually desensitized to the lives of these animals because I was brought up to look at these animals as food.
ReplyDeleteI know my post is a little late, but I just find it really interesting that most of us have a personal story to back up what we think. It's not just that any of us have an opinion, we feel entitled to it; something I don't find as definite in other discussions or texts that we've read in class.
ReplyDeleteWhat's my personal story? I ate meat (of all kind, though never had much pork because I've been born and raised in a Jewish house-hold) until the age of 15 when on a walk around the Kibbutz (agriculturally based community founded on the basis of Socialism in Israel) my grandmother lives on ended in a walk-through the refet (barn where cows were kept). As I stared at all the numbered Bessie's I just couldn't eat anymore.
Never in my life was I confronted by the living face of my food. Don't get me wrong, I remember the taste of beef, and even bacon (which I really remember loving in spite of my parents who refused to cook it, eating it at a diner any chance I could get), even lamb. The buttery goodness of lamb, with dill and yogurt sauce, just the thought of it makes my mouth water. And I'M A VEGETARIAN. I said it, lamb makes my mouth water. Why did I go to the green-side (because I don't see this as the "darkside")? Because I can't kill the animals I eat. I don't have the guts. Maybe this is something I need to acquire but as an urban girl born and raised, I've never had to rely on my sense of hunting (which is non-existent if ever I was in the position to flex this inactive and limp muscle).
Shane touched on this in both his blog post and our class discussion, and for me I still find myself a little hypocritical (because technically I'm a pescatarion, I guilt-freely eat seafood), but there's a certain amount of respect you should have for an animal that you're eating, and running out the room or not letting kids in the kitchen when you cook a lobster, is just not owning up to the fact that you are eating something that was once alive and it's death is for your consumption.
Sounds gross, but that is what meat is. It's an animal's death for your consumption and there's nothing wrong with that if you own up to it and accept that you either a) killed it yourself or would be willing to or b) are clearly informed of its pre-plated state. As long as you're honest with yourself and your meat, I couldn't care less whether you eat it or not.
I personally feel people make a connection towards animals they are sympathetic with. A lobster has no such character that moves or whispers any signs of emotions (in my view). Thou a Gold fish, no way! They are more like pets rather than a dish you can fry and put some sauce over it (sounds disgusting I know). Than again a cow or a goat are cute but some of us have excepted the fact that they are meant for our food consumption.
ReplyDeleteThe debate between "To eat or not to eat meat" will always remain. As the survival of the fittest we must consume what ever is necessary to "survive".
we sometimes choose to turn a blind eye towards the inhumanity towards animals for the sake of food but at the end all/some only care about what looks/tastes good on plate.